Sheila Johnson | Video | Firing Line with Margaret Hoover

Overcoming adversity to become America’s first Black female billionaire…this week, on Firing Line.

JOHNSON: There was not a channel  for the African American voice. I wanted the country to start listening to us. 

She is a media trailblazer and entrepreneur. And now, Sheila Johnson is opening up about the challenges she faced along the way.

JOHNSON: It took me about five years to even get up the confidence to write this. And people kept saying, you’ve got to tell your side of the story.

Johnson’s book, “Walk Through Fire,” details her rise from a tumultuous childhood to launching Black Entertainment Television with her then-husband Bob Johnson. They became known as the “king and queen” of Black media…..but Johnson writes about what she describes as emotional abuse and infidelity.

JOHNSON: I fought through it until I just couldn’t take it anymore. 

Their divorce after three decades of marriage, along with the sale of BET, helped launch her new chapter in luxury hotels and professional sports. As Johnson tells her story of triumph, she also has a warning:

JOHNSON: Respect for one another has got to come back. And this polarization through rhetoric is really becoming a problem. 

What does entrepreneur and philanthropist Sheila Johnson say now?

‘Firing Line’ with Margaret Hoover is made possible in part by: Stephens Inc., Vanessa and Henry Cornell, The Fairweather Foundation, The Tepper Foundation, Peter and Mary Kalikow, The Asness Family Foundation, The Beth and Ravenel Curry Foundation, Kathleen and Andrew McKenna through The McKenna Family Foundation, Charles R. Schwab and by Pritzker Military Foundation on behalf of the Pritzker Military Museum and Library, The Rosalind P. Walter Foundation, Damon Button, Craig Newmark Philanthropies, Roger and Susan Hertog, Cheryl Cohen Effron and Blair Effron, Al and Kathy Hubbard, Corporate funding is brought to you by: Stephens Inc., and by Pfizer Inc.

HOOVER:  Sheila Johnson, welcome to Firing Line. 

JOHNSON: Thank you so much. This is an honor. 

HOOVER: You recently published your memoir… 

JOHNSON: Yes. 

HOOVER: “Walk Through Fire: A Memoir of Love, Loss, and Triumph.” The book starts with you as a 16 year old girl coming home to the harsh reality that your father, who is a neurosurgeon, your mother, who is an accountant, decided to split up. It was your father’s decision. And this, as you write, is a pivotal early moment in your life that shapes you. 

JOHNSON: Absolutely. 

HOOVER: How?

JOHNSON: I had to grow up real fast. I had to take charge of the family. My mother, she just had a complete mental breakdown. And it was a case where my father, being one of eight African American neurosurgeons in the country, highly esteemed, my mother– I mean, they were at the top of the social ladder. You know, they were popular. And for him to just walk out was such a shock. And what people don’t realize, that back then women just did not have the ability to hold credit cards, their own bank account. He wouldn’t pay child support. I mean, he really just left us in a vacuum. 

HOOVER: It was like a death. 

JOHNSON: It was more than a death because it kind of upended– I wanted to go on to college. I still wanted to be a teenager. But I had to become a woman all of a sudden. 

HOOVER: You had to get a job. You had to support or help support the family. 

JOHNSON: I had to get a job. was mopping floors at JCPenney. I had to do whatever I could to help my mother to get bills paid, to do whatever we needed to do. 

HOOVER: You did go on to attend university, the University of Illinois, on a scholarship for playing the violin. 

JOHNSON: That’s right. I auditioned for the top professor, Paul Rolland. He says, you’re so good. You’re in, and we’re going to get you a full scholarship.

HOOVER: During your freshman orientation you were paired with an upperclassman by the name of Robert Johnson. 

JOHNSON: That’s right.

HOOVER: You refer to him as Bob. He is your first husband and your ex-husband. You write about how even early on in your relationship, you began dating in college, you saw red flags. 

JOHNSON: Everyone saw these red flags. And I should have paid attention to them because as we were dating and as we moved further into the relationship and then finally got married, I could really understand what they were talking about. He wouldn’t let me go to my own graduation. It was all part of control. We moved to Princeton, New Jersey, where he then went on to the Woodrow Wilson School. I had to work to make sure that he got through, and I wanted to make sure that there weren’t any bills. I was the one doing all this work. I was the cheerleader. And the more that I put out and to protect him and to help him, the more I was disrespected. And even when we started our company, Black Entertainment Television, I really believed in how that company was going to grow. And I worked very hard, and I wanted to put him in front, because so often in this country, African-American men are not given the respect that they should. And I wanted to make sure that I was going to put him first and put him out there. 

HOOVER: It was at the expense of cheerleading yourself and– 

JOHNSON: Yes. I lost myself in the process. I had no idea who I was. And I realized that I was getting more and more depressed as I was going through this, but I kept powering through and working hard to make sure it was going to be successful. 

HOOVER: Well, that was a successful enterprise. 

JOHNSON: Oh yes

HOOVER: You co-founded Black Entertainment Television in 1979 with Bob Johnson. It’s striking to me that that was two years before MTV even hit the airwaves. There was a vision there that was early. What was that vision? 

JOHNSON: Well, it was the birth of all of cable. We could see all these cable networks were starting up.  Because what was happening there was not a channel that was really answering the need for the African American voice. I wanted the country to start listening to us. And I thought this was the most incredible opportunity. 

HOOVER: Tell me more about how you struggled – you write about this in the book – you struggled to get advertisers. 

JOHNSON: People do not realize what the African-American public goes through. You know, people that are entrepreneurs, we fight for everything that we can get. I mean–

HOOVER: Do you have to fight more as a woman or as a black woman? 

JOHNSON: Both. Both. But I think it’s even harder for both men and women within the African-American community to really start their businesses. And the problem with BET, a great idea, everybody thought it was a great idea, but no one really believed that we could keep that network on the air. They did not want to invest in us. They did not want to advertise with us because, you know, that’s what pays the bills, And so we just could not help people understand our vision.

HOOVER: About BET, you know, you write, quote, responsibility to the Black– that you felt, you saw it as a, quote, “responsibility to the black community to put out higher quality content.” 

JOHNSON: Yes. 

HOOVER: You said there is still a need for a platform like the one you envisioned then to put out high quality content. Could that venture be profitable today? 

JOHNSON: You know, this is something that is very interesting because people have asked me about this. I think if BET gets bought – I know it’s up for sale – I think we need to look at it and see– We need to reevaluate the vision for what is going to be our end goal. What are the voices that are going to have to talk to the African American public? 

HOOVER: But it sounds like you just, you still lament. 

JOHNSON: I really do lament about it, because I think we squandered an opportunity to really have really good news programming on there. It’s not that I wanted to look like CNN, but we needed to really start tackling the real problems within the African-American community. 

HOOVER: To start BET, you sold your prized violin…

JOHNSON: Absolutely. 

HOOVER: …to launch– to pay for rent for the offices. And then you went on to serve as the vice president of the network. But Bob, who became the face of the company – you know, as, as you describe, that was a choice that you made to support him as the frontman – eventually he fired you from the company you co-founded. How do you understand that now? 

JOHNSON: Oh, I knew what was going on. There was a lot of partying going on. He was having affairs, and I just simply uncovered them and would confront him about it. And the more that I found out really what was going on. That’s when he said, I’m firing you and I want you to leave. And I said, you do this, this company’s up for sale. 

HOOVER: When you were going through this you were very private about your struggles. 

JOHNSON: Yes. 

HOOVER: And it took you five years to even get up the courage to write the memoir. Why was it important for you to finally share your side of the story? 

JOHNSON: Because so many people – and a lot of women go through this – I mean, the rumors are out there, and nobody would listen to me. They would not believe what I was going through.

HOOVER: Who wouldn’t?

JOHNSON: I said, but you’re seeing it. Just the general public, or I thought were friends. And they said, no, you need to stay married to him because you’re the king and the queen of the black media. And I said, you know what,  but I’m not happy. And my mental health was suffering. And, you know, it’s really sad because my daughter a few months ago, she says, mom, you were depressed my entire life. And I have to say that once I wrote this book and everything, my children really understand now what I have been going through. Because they were only seeing their father’s side of it, because I never spoke up. I never owned up to my hurt and the prison that I was living in. 

HOOVER: Well, after your divorce and your sale to Viacom, your very lucrative sale to Viacom… 

JOHNSON: Yes.

HOOVER: …you became the first black female billionaire in the United States. And you were living in Middleburg, Virginia. You talk about the challenges you had as you began your new life in Middleburg in terms of your struggles with a bank, respecting you as a client, difficulty getting loans. 

JOHNSON: Yes

HOOVER: You began a business in Middleburg, Virginia, which began small and has grown into a huge hospitality company. 

JOHNSON: Yes.

HOOVER: But you even had opposition from local white residents that was explicitly racist.

JOHNSON: Yes. So what had happened, once I got out of a marriage and I was able to start planning my own journey for my third act in life, I moved to this town and every time I would drive into Middleburg, there was a gun shop called the Powderhorn that had a Confederate flag. And I remember calling my attorney and I said, I want you to call this real estate agent. And I need to buy a building. And he says, why? I said, because I can. And I want to change this. I said, because it’s– I’m uncomfortable going through this town and seeing that. It’s not that I made a conscious decision to try and change the town. I did not want to do that, but I love the town so much. I love the distinct quality of it, and I knew that I could be comfortable there. So what had happened, you know, a broker came to me and said there’s 340 acres up for sale that borders the town of Middleburg, and would you be interested in buying it? It all belonged to Pamela Harriman. And I went up there on that property. And I knew immediately what I needed to do. And that was to build a resort. And so I decided to build this resort so that it would become the economic anchor of the town. 

HOOVER: In 2005, you purchased a stake in the Washington Mystics WNBA team, as well as the Washington Wizards, the NBA team in Washington, and the Capitals, which is the National Hockey League’s team, which made you the first black woman to co-own three professional sports teams. It seems– when I hear you talk about it, it seems like it was important to you to play that role in an industry that was historically dominated by men? 

JOHNSON: Absolutely. 

HOOVER: Why? 

JOHNSON: I mean, this was– women never get a chance to own sports teams. And it was a door that open that no woman is ever allowed to get in. And I’m glad that I was able to get the deal done. It’s just been wonderful. 

HOOVER: You mentioned the WNBA. And you are well aware that there is a pay gap with women and male athletes. NBA players make 44 times more than the average WNBA player. And I mean, when you talk about the consequences of this, this is partly why Brittney Griner was arrested in Russia. She was playing in Russia, as often WNBA players do play abroad, in order to supplement their earnings. 

JOHNSON: Exactly.

HOOVER: You’ve spoken out about this issue. You have called for higher pay. You have called for better facilities and more media exposure. What else can be done to solve this problem? 

JOHNSON: What has to happen is we do need more media. I mean, we’re on ION television, ESPN. We get some games on regular networks, but we need something that’s consistent. We really need for corporate America to really start investing in women’s sports. 

HOOVER: Is there an underlying cultural shift that needs to happen in order for corporate America to believe that there’s a market there for it? 

JOHNSON: I just think in general that just as–  society needs to believe in women. It’s not just in sports, it’s in everything that we do. I mean, let’s face it, we still have a battle that we’re facing every day. 

HOOVER: You mentioned the possible sale of BET again. And apparently Paramount is taking bids from the likes of Tyler Perry, Shaquille O’Neal. Byron Allen, the entrepreneur, renewed his push to purchase the network last December for three and a half billion dollars. You have said the network needs to reassess its purpose. 

JOHNSON: Yeah, I think whoever buys it needs to sit back and say, what can we do to really make this network work? 

HOOVER: And you wouldn’t be interested in being the owner again? 

JOHNSON: It’s funny, because the bank even called, wanted to know if I still wanted– No, I do not.

HOOVER: I mean, what a comeback story. 

JOHNSON: It would be a great comeback story, but I’ve got my money invested in hotels now. I think more than anything, if they would like me to just work with them behind the scenes to help them reimagine a network that’s really going to address what has to be addressed in this country. And that’s really giving..

HOOVER: Which is what?

JOHNSON: …African Americans a platform with their voice on what they need– They need to be heard. Yeah, they need to hear our issues out there. Because it’s still so one sided. 

HOOVER: Can you give me an example of one of the issues that bothers you that isn’t– 

JOHNSON: Politics. 

HOOVER: Yeah. 

JOHNSON: I mean, we’re so afraid to talk about who we want in the Oval Office. I mean, we just, we just aren’t hearing our voices. And I think I’d love to be able to give the African American voice the courage to say, ‘look, no, that person should not be in office.’ We’re going to rally behind another candidate. I mean, we saw during, you know, getting Obama elected, how we really did rally around there. But we need to do more. And BET was alive and well when that happened. And you really did hear our voices. But we have to dig deeper to really get to the root of what our problems are. And we have to have the courage to really speak out, whether it’s good or bad, about what is really happening in this country. Let’s address poverty. Let’s address housing issues. Let’s address crime. Why do we, why is there so much crime going on? Why can’t we really talk about these issues? Nobody’s talking to our youth. 

JOE BIDEN

HOOVER: You have been involved in Democratic politics, since you mentioned it, since the 90s. You just referenced Barack Obama, whom you endorsed, and you have supported Joe Biden, at least in 2020. As you look ahead to this year’s election, how does the prospect of a Biden v Trump rematch strike you? 

JOHNSON: It’s frightening. I don’t know what’s going to happen here. I will continue to support Biden and that ticket. 

HOOVER: So you really have confidence that Joe Biden will be a strong president if he’s reelected? 

JOHNSON: I do. We don’t have much of a choice.

HOOVER: A good president, a good president. What does the prospect of a second Trump term–

JOHNSON: I’m frightened. I’m really frightened. 

HOOVER: Is it the polarization that’s frightening to you? Are there–

JOHNSON: The polarization. His rhetoric. I just don’t think that what he’s doing is very safe. I don’t feel safe in this country. I really don’t. What’s happening right now. I worry about my kids, my grandkids, the future. Where are we going? I don’t want us to break out into a civil war. Love has got to come back into this country. Respect for one another has got to come back. And this polarization through rhetoric is really becoming a problem. 

HOOVER: You mentioned that the prospect of a second Trump term is frightening. When you hear leading American bankers in this country like Jamie Dimon say, well, Trump did some things right, how does that land with you? 

JOHNSON: Well, I would like to sit with Jamie Dimon, and I would like him to list what he thought he did right. You know. 

HOOVER: Did it strike you that he was hedging because he sees that it’s possible that the president of the United States could be Donald Trump. And so he’s trying to– 

JOHNSON: They all play this game. You know, they’re not going to burn their bridges because it’s the company money behind it. What I’d like to ask Jamie Dimon is would he put Trump’s money in JP Morgan? 

HOOVER: What do you think he’d say? 

JOHNSON: Would he take that risk– I don’t know what he would say. I would like to sit and talk with him about that. 

HOOVER: He might say that there may not be much left. 

JOHNSON: I don’t know what he would say. I just know that Jamie Diamond and J.P. Morgan have taken very good care of me. 

HOOVER: I want to shift gears. This program was hosted by William F. Buckley Jr. for 33 years. And in 1979, William F. Buckley Jr. hosted a pioneer woman in television named Dorothy Fuldheim, who was the first woman TV news anchor for Channel 5 in Cleveland. This is a woman that Barbara Walters called the first woman to be taken seriously on television. She was on Buckley’s program, and this is what she said about gender and media. Take a look. 

FULDHEIM: I think that television is one of the greatest influences that has ever occurred in civilized society, for it is going to create a homogeneous quality between people. The alienation, the different customs which separate us by – really not important, but because they were different– And I think that the average person, who would not read The.National Geographic or The Saturday Review or any of these magazines, can see things in television. The whole standard of knowledge has been raised.

HOOVER: She’s there speaking to television as a unifying vector in our culture, which in 1979 one could argue that it was. This is at the time that you formed BET. Since it was invented it’s been hailed for elevating humanity, but it’s also been derided for debasing our culture. And I think it seems to me that you’ve experienced both the promise and the disappointment of television. Which side do you think is winning right now? 

JOHNSON: I don’t think anyone is winning. If you look at the regular networks and what’s on there all the time, it’s not really addressing the needs of our public. It’s entertainment. It’s not really educating. I don’t like watching television anymore because I’m not getting anything out of it. It’s become depressing. 

HOOVER: Is there a risk in that, that people then withdraw from civic life?

JOHNSON: Yes. And I think people are withdrawing. The quality of television is not what it used to be. And that’s what’s happening. 

AFFIRMATIVE ACTION

HOOVER: You have become a very well known philanthropist.

JOHNSON: Mm hmm

HOOVER: And one of the areas where you have been very generous is in supporting academic scholarships for women in advanced degrees at Harvard. 

JOHNSON: Yes. 

HOOVER: Recently, affirmative action has been struck down by the Supreme Court. And I wonder how you think this will affect women of color and higher education. 

JOHNSON: It’s troubling. It’s troubling. And I think so many friends, including– my ex-husband was part of affirmative action, and was able to get into these schools. I think it’s going to take leadership among us that are really willing to invest in education and work with underserved students, both men and women. I put 50 students, I paid for everything, to the Kennedy School at Harvard. Every single one of them are so successful now because I just didn’t write the check. I’m there for them. They call me Mama J.

HOOVER: I mean, is philanthropy big enough to sustain…

JOHNSON: It can be. It can be. If, you know, I even look at our NBA athletes and the money that they receive. If there was some way I could get to them and say, come on, let’s start pulling money together so that we can really invest in the education of underserved students. It’s not that they’re dumb or anything. They just don’t have the ability to be able to go to school. They’re not given the ability to be able to do it. 

HOOVER: The opportunities. 

JOHNSON: And the opportunities. I mean, that’s where we need to do it. 

HOOVER: You recently turned 75. 

JOHNSON: Yes. 

HOOVER: You describe, as you have in this interview, that you are in your third act in life, managing seven resorts, coaching three sports teams. You also don’t like to sit still.

JOHNSON: No

HOOVER: If you were to describe one ingredient, the single ingredient that was the foundation for your success, what would it be? 

JOHNSON: The arts. It was my learning to play the violin, teaching me how to listen. The arts are really the foundation of life. It works on your brain like you wouldn’t believe. Everyone has a music room in their brain. And I don’t care what kind of music you’re listening to, but the arts were really my salvation. When things weren’t going right in my life, I took out my violin. I performed. I conducted orchestras. That still keeps me breathing every day. That’s what really makes me happy. 

HOOVER: Well, Sheila Johnson, thank you for sharing your story with me on Firing Line. I so appreciate that you are a role model for so many people in this country. 

JOHNSON: So welcome. Thank you. 

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